My Musings

Wednesday, January 23, 2008

Jesus is Still the Messiah!

In our conversation that has been developing over the past few days regarding Judaism and the Messianic prophecies (Read it Here!) being fulfilled in Jesus Christ, I have come to understand the feelings of frustration and heartfelt pain that Paul expressed in the New Testament. It was obvious that Paul was deeply hurt by the fact that his fellow countrymen were so consumed with their traditions and with their scholars that they completely ignored, denied, and rejected their own Messiah!

"For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;"
~ Romans 9:3-4
It is sad that this group of people who God so dearly loves and cares for has rejected his perfect gift to them! They have turned their back on the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and done it in the name of the very God they are rejecting. Consider for a few moments a few of the things that I have learned about why they reject the Savior of the world.

  1. They steep their faith in the credentials of Jewish ancestors rather than in a clear examination of the facts for themselves. In several examples of our conversation, these Jewish people made it painfully obvious that they care more for their faith in their scholars than they do in the facts and logic of the Word of God itself. Consider the following two excerpts from our conversation.

    "Nicholas, first my statements in regards to the doctor are not Ad Hominem. In Judaism we accept that the Tzadikim have the power to decide, until such time as the Sanhedrin is restored. So the fact that the doctor is not a Gadol is profoundly relevant." ~ Kahaneloyalist

    "Nick: Let me enlighten you to a wonderful Jewish concept. The Torah states that matters of Jewish law are in our hands to decide, not G-d's."

    Where does God ever hint at the fact that matters of Jewish law are outside of his own hands? This, however, is the simple logic that was used to deny God himself as the savior of the world when they crucified the God-man Christ Jesus! Even though Jesus was God, they made it very clear that it was up to them to decide his fate...not God!

  2. The clear denying of other credentialed Jewish scholars when they do not support their position. For example, they deny the clear teaching of a virgin birth as found in Isaiah 7:14.

    The multitude of Jewish scholars who who lived prior to Christ, were amazingly learned in the linguistics of the day, translated the Old Testament in the Greek, and believed that Isaiah 7:14 referred to a Virgin between 300 and 100 BC are not relevant to the Jewish community. Notice that it was Jewish scholars prior to Christ who believed without dispute that the verse was adamantly referring to a virgin and not a young woman. As a side note...what kind of sign is it anyway that a young woman will conceive a child? That happens a bazillion times a day today and didn't most women have lots of children back then. It was a sign because it was going to be something out of the ordinary for everyone to see and know!

  3. The naively attack the fact the Jesus Christ even existed! I don't even have time to get into this argument as it would take me all day, but let me throw out a few historians that lived during the first few centuries who reference the reality of Jesus Christ.

    • Josephus
    • Suetonius, chief secretary to Emperor Hadrian
    • The Babylonian Talmud (Sanhedrin 43a) confirms Jesus' crucifixion on the eve of Passover, and the accusations against Christ of practicing sorcery and encouraging Jewish apostasy.

  4. They are only willing to hold to a few 'Utopian' prophecies that are either taken way out of context or are referring to the second coming. They have turned their backs on hundreds of prophecies that were fulfilled in Jesus Christ for a very small handful of which a clearly indicative of his Glorious return at the second coming of Jesus Christ. They misunderstand the concept or idea that the Messiah first came as a suffering Servant and will come again a second time as the sovereign Savior!

    "The Jewish idea of the moshiach has nothing to do with a demigod or salvation but rather a human king who will save Israel from the gentiles, ingather the exile, bring world peace, rebuild the Temple, strengthen the Torah and unite the world in service of G-d. JC did NONE of that." ~ Bar Kochba
It is very sad that they refuse to accept Jesus Christ as their Messiah and I fear that all too soon they will realize the truth. I pray and I care deeply for all of these people and I hope that they will at least consider the truths found in the Old Testament that point them toward Jesus as the Messiah. Remember the words of Christ himself.

"Search the scriptures...and they are they which testify of me."
~ John 5:39

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19 Comments:

  • Bar,

    In regard to some of your statements about Christ not being mentioned in some contemporary historian's works, let me make a few statements.

    First, as I pointed out in the this post he is mentioned in some records.

    Second, consider a few facts about his demographics that in that day and age would have limited his being recorded by historians.

    A. He was from a poor family. Class warfare was a lot worse then than it is know. Nobody in the rich classes cared about this poor man leading the poor masses. The ones who did care took care of it in my point to follow.

    B. He was crucified as a wretched criminal member of society. The only people in the wealthy classes who took note of Jesus were the ones trying to kill him. They accomplished this at his crucifixion. How often did historians of that day take special interest in poor criminals. Nobody cared about that stuff.

    C. His ministry only lasted for three years. Most historians probably figured that with this and the first two in mind, Jesus was just a blip on the time line not really worth mentioning.

    Take those things into consideration when you try to make claims as outstanding as the idea that Jesus was a myth!

    By Blogger Nicholas Z. Cardot, At 6:56 AM  

  • Excellent - excellent! Awesome post! Amen and Amen, Brother!

    By OpenID maranatha777, At 7:38 AM  

  • Nicholas,
    You are right about the Hebrew being translated into the Greek Septuagint, not the other way around. Even though the Septuagint is a poor translation of the Hebrew - the Greek sometimes fails to capture the Hebrew meaning - it was Hebrew learned Jews who translated their Hebrew into the foreign Greek language, hence the absence of finer Greek syntax.

    And you're absolutely right regarding your observation about the the the SIGN that would be given by an "young maiden" ("almah" in the Hebrew) who was going to have a son and call his name "Emmanuel." If this "young maiden" was married, big deal... how's that a sign to anyone, right?

    But WHY did Isaiah chose to use "young maiden" instead of "virgin?"

    ANSWER:
    18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was BETROTHED to Joseph, BEFORE THEY CAME TOGETHER, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit. 19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not wanting to make her a public example, was minded to put her away secretly. 20 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins.”
    22 So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying: 23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,”[d] which is translated, “God with us.”
    24 Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife, 25 AND DID NOT KNOW HER TILL SHE HAD BROUGHT FORTH HER FIRSTBORN SON. And he called His name JESUS.

    There are some other issues I wish I had time to address, which need to be addressed in light of the Hebraic/Jewish roots of our faith vs. Romanized or Hellenized theology, but I'm just stopping by quickly during lunch. I'll bet a million-to-one BK or Kahaneloyalist will get to those points before I do... hopefully, and then we can take it from there. :)

    Shalom,
    Deborah

    By Blogger Deborah, At 1:45 PM  

  • P.S.
    So as not to confuse anyone, remember an "almah" can refer to a virgin, a young maiden who is betrothed, or a young married woman. So, obviously, in Isaiah 7:14 and Matthew 1:22, "virgin" or "young unmarried but betrothed maiden" is definitely the rendering of that Hebrew word!

    By Blogger Deborah, At 2:22 PM  

  • Nicholas, I am not sure if you read our responses, Devarim clearly put the power to decide Halacha in the hands of the Chachamim.

    With your commentThe clear denying of other credentialed Jewish scholars when they do not support their position. For example, they deny the clear teaching of a virgin birth as found in Isaiah 7:14. Who are you to say who is a "credentialed" Jewish scholar. A Rabbi is one who has recieved Semicha, who has an unbroken chain of revelation from Har Sinai itself. Not cult leaders who were laughed at by not only the Talmidim but the common people as well, who clung tightly to the Tzadikim and rejected Yeshu.

    Furthermore, I am still waiting for you to produce a single prophecy that Yeshu actually fufilled, and mistranslations or comical misinterpretations dont count.

    BK, showed why the Septuagint, which why translated into Greek by Jews was corrupted long before Yeshu showed up.

    What your post shows is what I and BK have been saying over and over, your ancestors only stole Torah SheBiksav, they were unable to get their hands on Torah SheBaal Peh. Which is why you are unable to understand the Torah, you only have half, and a (mis)translated half at that.

    By Blogger kahaneloyalist, At 5:40 PM  

  • Nick: I understand your pain and frustration. Think about it- you are willing to bet your life on the claim that JC was the messiah and yet the very people with whom originated the concept of moshiach, while the rest of the world was praying to sticks and stones, will have nothing to do with him. What's a Christian to do?

    Here's an analogy: A family in Montreal's child goes missing and they put up signs, descriptions and give out information about him. Eventually, a couple in Vancouver call up and say that they have found the child. When the Montreal couple finally arrive and are shown another child, they realize thay they have been duped and are extremly disappointed although the Vancouver couple assures them that it is their child. The Montreal family says to them: he is our child and only know him well. Obviously we can tell who is our child or not.

    Nick, the concept of the moshiach comes from the Jewish people. Why do you think that we do not accept JC, besides G-d having blinded us perfidous Jews or being of the synagogue of Satan? Could it be because JC was not and never will be the messiah? Christians do not base their faith on the verses but rather twist and distort the verses to fit their belief. They come to the text with the preconceived notion of the messiahood of JC and see him on every page. Meanwhile, I have shown you how 'almah' cannot mean virgin and how, even if it did, the context had nothing to do with JC (which have not been answered).

    (As a sidenote: there is no need to assure us over and over of how much you love Israel and the Jewish people. It only enforces my lingering suspicion, shared by many Jews, that all of this newfound Christian "love" is to "provoke us to jealousy" and to bring us to accept Christianity. It is the good cop-bad cop routine where we are so grateful for your support that we abandon our Torah. This is called loving us to death.)

    I also do not have time to prove the non-historicity of JC but I am having this debate over at Deborah's blog so by all means join in.

    You seem to have ignored all of my objections in your zeal. You write: "Where does God ever hint at the fact that matters of Jewish law are outside of his own hands?" to which I answered "It [the Torah, Jewish law] is not in heaven...But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it." (Deut. 30:12-14) The Torah is on earth, for the Jewish people to live by.

    Here is the most blasphemous statement: "This, however, is the simple logic that was used to deny God himself as the savior of the world when they crucified the God-man Christ Jesus! Even though Jesus was God, they made it very clear that it was up to them to decide his fate...not God!"

    To a Jew, equating G-d with a mortal man is idolatrous and heresy. This idea of a man-god is directly refuted by the Torah.

    God is not a man that He should lie, nor is He a mortal that He should relent…” (Numbers 23:19 (Judaica Press Complete Tanakh)

    “the Strength of Israel will neither lie nor repent, for He is not a man to repent." (1 Samuel 15:29)

    “For He [God] is not man like me,” (Job 9:32)

    “…for I am God and not a man.”(Hosea 11:9)

    “Take therefore good heed unto yourselves--for you saw no manner of form on the day that the Lord spoke to you in Horeb our of the midst of the fire-- lest you deal corruptly and make you a graven image, even the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female.” (Deuteronomy 4:15-16)

    So I have left you with the evidence―you must come to a decision! What have you now learned? Who do you trust:

    · The word of God exclaiming that He “is not a man;” or

    · Unknown Christian writers who say God was once a man?

    The choice is yours and yours alone. No one can remain sitting on the fence and, in the end, claim blind-faith.

    "As G-d created our minds, He expects us to use our reasoning together with our faith. Faith is not a substitute for reason, but a development from it and alongside it."

    By Blogger Bar Kochba, At 7:51 PM  

  • This comment has been removed by the author.

    By Blogger Jungle Mom, At 9:59 AM  

  • Nick, I deleted my last comment. I felt it was written a bit in the flesh. So sorry!

    By Blogger Jungle Mom, At 1:52 PM  

  • I felt like your comment was completely appropriate. I find myself remembering something that you told me not so long ago. Something to the effect that they are as prickly as Independent Baptists.

    By Blogger Nicholas Z. Cardot, At 6:12 PM  

  • A Rabbi is one who has recieved Semicha, who has an unbroken chain of revelation from Har Sinai itself.

    Where does the Torah ever say anything like that?

    Where does God say that you have the power to decide if God is right or wrong?

    It blows my mind.

    By Blogger Nicholas Z. Cardot, At 6:14 PM  

  • Furthermore, I am still waiting for you to produce a single prophecy that Yeshu actually fulfilled, and mistranslations or comical misinterpretations don't count.

    Someone help me out here. Is this a little bit of circular reasoning?

    Show me a prophecy and make sure that I agree with the interpretation of it.

    You tell me how I can qualify an answer to this question and I'll be glad to answer it!

    By Blogger Nicholas Z. Cardot, At 6:17 PM  

  • Bar,

    Your analogy is beautiful but today while I was at work something dawned on me.

    During one of our funerals, the wife of the deceased had Alzheimer's and could not understand that this was her husband being buried.

    "In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." II Corinthians 4:4

    Your eyes have been blinded by Satan and you are unable or unwilling to come to the light!

    By Blogger Nicholas Z. Cardot, At 6:21 PM  

  • My love toward Israel has nothing to do with bringing you to Christ. I hope that you do come to Christ, but I love Israel first and foremost for selfish reasons. I know that if I bless Israel that God will bless me. He made this clear in the book of Genesis. Sorry...I'm selfish.

    If you decide to repent and accept the Messiah as a side effect, then praise the Lord!

    By Blogger Nicholas Z. Cardot, At 6:23 PM  

  • "The Torah is on earth, for the Jewish people to live by." ~ Bar

    You are right, God's law is on earth for us to live by...not for us to decide and interpret ourselves. We are to read it literally and obey it!

    By Blogger Nicholas Z. Cardot, At 6:26 PM  

  • You are right that during the Old Testament era, if I may call it that loosely referring to the time prior to Jesus, God was not a man. The Bible is clear on that issue in both the Old and New Testaments.

    The Bible clearly states that he became or took upon himself the form of a man.

    "But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:"

    Also as a side note, I really like that quote that you closed your comment with. I noticed quotation marks around it so I assume it is not from yourself. I would love to know where you got it?

    "As G-d created our minds, He expects us to use our reasoning together with our faith. Faith is not a substitute for reason, but a development from it and alongside it."

    By Blogger Nicholas Z. Cardot, At 6:30 PM  

  • "Your eyes have been blinded by Satan and you are unable or unwilling to come to the light!" Well thanks. Have you ever heard of the Disputation of Barcelona? In 1263, the great rabbi Nachmanides was summoned to debate the apostate Pablo Christiani. Needless to say, Nachmanides moped the floor with Christiani, as have the Jews in practically all of the many debates during the Middle Ages. When the debate was over, and the Ramban (Nachmanides) presented all of his proofs, the king remarked to him: "I have never heard an unjust cause more nobly defended" ie. Christianity is already right and if anyone proves otherwise, his cause is unjust, Scriptural proofs notwithstanding. Eventually, a capital charge was instituted and the Ramban fled to Israel. Christians have a very long history of simply responding to Jewish claims by saying that they are right, Satan has blinded us and to stop looking at the man behind the curtain. Besides showing you the parallels between Christians today and then, what the Ramban said was key:

    "[... it seems most strange that... ] the Creater of Heaven and Earth resorted to the womb of a certain Jewish lady, grew there for nine months and was born as an infant, and afterwards grew up and was betrayed into the hands of his enemies who sentenced him to death and executed him, and that afterwards... he came to life and returned to his original place. The mind of a Jew, or any other person, simply cannot tolerate these assertions. If you have listened all your life to the priests who have filled your brain and the marrow of your bones with this doctrine, and it has settled into you because of that accustomed habit. [I would argue that if you were hearing these ideas for the first time, now, as a grown adult], you would never have accepted them."

    "You are right that during the Old Testament era, if I may call it that loosely referring to the time prior to Jesus, God was not a man." So you contradict the word of G-d based on anonymous Christian writers? The idea that G-d changed is downright blasphemous!

    “For I, the Lord, have not changed; and you, the sons of Jacob, have not reached the end.” (Malachi 3:6)

    "God is not a man, that He should lie; neither the son of man, that He should repent: when He hath said, will He not do it? or when He hath spoken, will He not make it good?" (Numbers 23:19)

    " They shall perish, but Thou shalt endure; yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt Thou change them, and they shall pass away; But Thou art the selfsame, and Thy years shall have no end. The children of Thy servants shall dwell securely, and their seed shall be established before Thee." (Psalm 102) G-d is eternal and His being is unchanging.

    "The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, the thoughts of His heart to all generations." (Psalm 33:11)

    "The Bible clearly states that he became or took upon himself the form of a man." Which Bible? G-d's eternal Torah or the flawed and impure writings of unknown Christians.

    PS The quote was from a a discussion on Christianity Revealed's forum.

    By Blogger Bar Kochba, At 9:43 PM  

  • BTW Saying that someone had been blinded by Satan is not a very good response to logical arguments based on Torah and scriptural quotes. It really enforces my idea that Christianity is a wobbly house of cards that can come crashing down at any moment. It makes you look desparate, and it is rude and condescending. I seem to have hit a nerve.

    By Blogger Bar Kochba, At 9:49 PM  

  • I am not simply demanding that I am right. I have made statement after statement based on logical reasoning and have made a couple of statements as side comments which were basically concluding remarks.

    I have asked for a logical way in which to present a prophecy to you without being attacked by the circular reasoning of not interpreting it according to your standards.

    I have asked for proof that the Jews have power to decide what is God's Will and what is not but all I keep getting is a verse that says He has placed his law on earth for us to obey...it says nothing about interpreting it or deciding it. It says simply to do it.

    My statement about the blinded eyes and my illustration about the widow were not an emphatic statement of my rightness. Rather it was a logical response to your story in which you again directly implied that I couldn't know the truth anyways just because I don't share the same ancestral background as you.

    It was in your story and the context surrounding it that you committed the same crime that you are accusing me of. Simply stating that you are right without any other reason than simply being who you are. And I agree. That is not logic.

    Only Jews can know the truth.
    I am not Jewish.
    Therefore, I cannot know the truth.

    This is the logic that you have used on several occasions.

    Also, it is becoming painfully obvious that many of your qualified scholars are not qualified based on the Torah, but on your man-made traditions. You have elevated Jewish traditions to a higher status than the Bible itself in many cases. Since the Sanhedrin no longer exist we have decided to give the power of making those decisions to this or that group of people.....yes...YOU have decided! Not God.

    By Blogger Nicholas Z. Cardot, At 10:49 PM  

  • "It really enforces my idea that Christianity is a wobbly house of cards that can come crashing down at any moment."

    I smiled when I read the sentence I quoted here. When I read it, I was immediately reminded of a learned and qualified Jewish scholar who said the same thing almost two thousand years ago. I am still waiting for the "come to naught part."

    According your logic, shouldn't he have been right? He was Jewish and didn't he fit the bill of the people who are qualified to make those kinds of decisions?

    "Then stood there up one in the council, a Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, had in reputation among all the people, and commanded to put the apostles forth a little space...And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to naught:" Acts 5:34,38

    By Blogger Nicholas Z. Cardot, At 10:57 PM  

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